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> I personally don't appreciate any of these abjectly defeatist and rigidly utilitarian views.

Idk what you mean by utilitarian. Are you referring to 'greatest amount of happiness for the greatest number of people' / trolley problem philosophy? If so, I don't see the relevance. I think you're talking about these characters extreme prioritisation of utility.

But what has me confused is how Motoko could be interpreted as defeatist. Like sure, in this individual scene from ep 25, Motoko has deemed her and Batou's external mnemonic devices to be "useless". But this is not a characterisation of her whole attitude toward cyberisation and self-definition. She is embracing of cyberisation. But again, the tech just has its drawbacks. Motoko had experimental prosthetics forced upon her from an early age and had to adapt to them. It caused her quite a lot of strife, but we are not shown the nitty gritty of this process. Rather, we are given a relatively content - but fallible - Motoko focused on her difficult work and embracing of cyberisation who, when appropriate, reflects on that time. She also explicitly deems herself a "realist" rather than defeatist or pessimistic. She is not one for dreaming or sentimentality, but does see emotion/entertainment/sentimentality as worthy of value:

Episode 7

"I'll take a puppet that keeps playing on people's dreams over a hero that doesn't live up to the name any day of the week."

Episode 12

Motoko: "I have to it, it wasn't a bad movie. But all entertainment diversions are fundamentally transitory. Or at least they should be. But a movie without a beginning or end that only keeps an audience fascinated and never lets them go... It's harmful, no matter how wonderful you may have thought it was."

[...]

Movie Director: "For some people in the audience, misery is waiting for them the instant they return to reality. Can you accept responsibility for depriving those people of their dreams?"
Motoko: "No, I can't. But dreams have meaning for you because you're fighting for them within reality. Doing nothing but projecting yourself into other people's dreams is the same as being dead."

She's steadfast in her principles (as also displayed by her first line in ep1), and she keeps the watch despite her negative remark.

There are more moments, I don't wanna go on TOO much, though.

> I won't apologize for wanting to see some emotional affect in the characters rather than just witty banter. These characters have rapport, yes, but I feel that their unwillingness to show emotion weakens my connection to them.

It's certainly true that professionals joke around all the damn time ("Now a bigger wound, like from a .38, you're gonna have to get a new head. This one you could fix." - from Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets). They exhibit no emotion in these moments because doing so gets in their way. The drama of many hardboiled cop-portrait stories is found in those moments where they are, indeed, affected. And how many such moments are in SAC?

An example from an early episode of what I'm talking about: why doesn't the Major show any care when she relays the last moments of the engineer who put himself in that experimental tank? She isn't Data from Star Trek: The Next Generation; she is a human being and this is exactly the kind of thing that should get to her, so why do I feel like it doesn't? Because we aren't shown it getting to her. We need to see those moments of personal weakness, and I just don't. Maybe others do, in which case, great! As it stands to me, though, the Major is just a very boring superhero.

I quoted this part in full to make sure I'm getting this right. Your point is: "They exhibit no emotion in these moments because doing so gets in their way." The evidence is: Motoko doesn't "show any care when she relays the last moments of the engineer who put himself in that experimental tank" and that "we aren't shown it getting to her".

Episode 2

Kago's parents arrive outside the front of their house

The Tank (housing Kago's ghost) levers itself up, eventually seemingly pointing a machine turret toward them

Motoko: "Damn it, why haven't they evacuated?!"
Batou: "Tachikoma!"

Tachikoma gets in between Kago's parents and the turret barrel

Motoko reaches over to fry Kago's cyberbrain, and upon doing so she sees a montage of his life lived

[...]

Batou: "Damn it, he hated his parents that much?"
Motoko: "No. It was just for a split second, but I felt something when I burned out Kago's brain. "Well Mom? What do you think of me in my steel body?" It was a strange sensation. It wasn't pride... Or vengeance.
Batou: "Forget about it. It was just a hallucination."
Motoko: "I hope so. There's no way we'll ever know for sure now."


This moment affected Motoko, and it's right there in the quote and in her behaviour, and it's not some vague artsy bs. What's super interesting is that you say that Motoko doesn't show any "care" while relaying Kago's last moments. I'll sideline the music, and how much I love the - what I'll call - solemnity of Atsuko Tanaka's performance (the dub also conveys this for me too) and just clarify that Motoko corrects Batou's assumption that Kago resented his parents. Not only does she correct him, she relays Kago's final thought despite the sensation being vague and challenging to interpret. She doesn't console Kago's family or his friend though; these are more compelling pieces of evidence suggesting that she's not emotionally invested. But it is simply not the case that she's totally detached. She attempted to decipher and relay a life's worth of emotions. This is sympathy, and Motoko showed it.

Additionally, Batou's comment that the experience was a "hallucination" is super super interesting considering how these characters off-handedly talk about emotions and memories as if they're illusionary/inauthentic and replaceable in episode 24 of S1, and episodes 11 and 26 of S2 (there are more instances).

Now, I'd consider it an improvement to have the Kago case referenced down the line. Or perhaps Jun'ichi Fujisaku could've used this moment as a launchpad for Motoko to self reflect within the episode itself, like Yoshiki Sakurai does with the cases in episodes 3 and 8. And yes, Motoko could've consoled Kago's family. She could've mentioned one of the images of Kago's life that we see flash across the screen. Claiming that we're "not shown this moment getting to her" is understandable because the emotion that the writers display may not suffice for you, which is fair enough. But claiming that she showed no care relaying Kago's final thought is genuinely baffling to me.

How many moments like this are there? Quite a few. Batou and Motoko make a downright habit of giving their personal opinions on multiple cases when they're finished (episode 7), including the ones wherein they have personal stakes (episodes 3, 8, and 10) or one that particularly (and unexpectedly) affected Motoko (episode 12). This is not including anything from the Complex episodes. Being special ops, they need to be professional and rational. They cannot let their emotions into the equation. I don't if SAC itself references this like the Oshii film does, but this is why Motoko scouted family-man Togusa. He also doesn't have trouble authentically pinning his 'self' down like Motoko does. If SAC doesn't bring this up, I'd consider that a missed opportunity.

> Real life is not so different from a noir film. That a specifically cyberpunk show like SAC doesn't lean into that as hard as it can is a serious blow to my rating of it.

Fair enough.

I honestly don't know how to respond fully. Most of your comment is pretty subjective and criticising the show for not attempting specific character arcs you wanted to see (which is fair enough). I can only solidly refute a few points.

> they haven't acknowledged (or maybe even figured out) how flawed their reasoning for what constitutes identity actually is.

It's in the quote. "Useless scraps of memory". Motoko calls the external devices useless. That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of these particular methods for self-identification.

> this problem is only acknowledged by the characters in the penultimate episode

In S1, there are moments in eps 3, 8, and 24 that explicitly explore practical issues and feelings Motoko has/had towards cyberisation. But these moments almost don't bear mentioning because....

> what I think is missing from this entire series is the quintessential element of postmodernism that would make this moment feel less like just an idea and more like an actual arc with a theme.

...they don't meet your standard of contributing to an arc whereby Motoko defines herself by her relationships (etc.). I guess I prefer that Motoko goes through these moments of clarity rather than ing some endpoint of a character arc where she knows who she is "for real". This, to me, would be kinda cheesy. She's already devised a method of self-identification that she denies is put in place for "sentimental reasons" and she comfortably views physical forms and memories as interchangeable tools to be used as needs be. For Motoko, self-actualisation isn't so saccharine. The good path for her is feeling useful and further embracing the benefits of working wherever top of the range technology is available. That ideal life just has its drawbacks, as we see vocalised in episode 25, and hinted at in episode 8.

> The point that relationships are what count in life is never made, nor is there even a line making clear that they decide they want to let go of this flawed mindset they carry.

They don't see the mindset as flawed to the point of being totally fucked. It's more like an unavoidable issue that can only be lived with.



I guess, before I can proceed at all, I should clarify that I don't think Batou and Motoko hate prosthetics. They embrace prosthetics and repeatedly state how convenient they are, and even encourage others to get them. Though, if I were to count the latter installments, Batou becomes weary of Saito and Togusa's prosthetic enhancements. Episode 8 hints at the severity of full-blown prosthetic enhancement. The "emotional distance" that I talked about was in reference to their unsure sense of self and Motoko's restrained emoting.

Also, I think this is an important question. Why is a clear arc with a theme necessarily "better written"? The only semblance of an arc that I could catch for Motoko was her accepting that the watch was indeed kept for sentimental reasons, for reasons that couldn't be satisfied by prosthetics.

it's like I'm on a ride-along with a bunch of taciturn cops that are totally checked out and just want the day to be over.

Idk man. I switch on episode 14 and I saw banter, cool fight scenes, and kickass music. Just like episode 3 while they're chasing that nepobaby. Just like in that UK episode where Aramaki and Motoko let loose and share some wine together. Etc. Etc. In episode 14, we see the characters jabbing at each other. Interacting with the Tachikomas. Batou screwing around with robot dogs and ogling sports cars. Togusa staying behind at the Mansion, invested in the dude's reasoning for stockpiling the gold and leaving a coin on his chest to "pay the ferryman". This doesn't strike me as taciturn. It characterises Batou. And in the case of Togusa, he didn't have to leave that coin! He doesn't "just want the day to be over". It's statements like this that make me feel like I watched a different show entirely.

Your SAC S1 review is fascinating. So, I went full tryhard and responded to some points from it. I'm not going to heavily focus on your comparisons to the Oshii film because it's been years since I saw it. And I haven't seen Tiger & Bunny or Witch Hunter Robin, so I'll leave them out here too.

I'll get the smaller bits out of the way first.

"Where is the drama, the emotional conflict? We get pieces here and there of hearts in the standalone episodes, but these stories are rarely well-written; episode 16’s “I’m the one with the blind spot” line made me and my brother almost die laughing. The emotional climax of the episode should not seem so ridiculous."

I understand why that one example you pick out may not work, it's clunky and rushed and therefore cheesy. Zaitsev comes to this conclusion if front of Batou even before the cuffs click just so Batou can absorb the dramatic circumstances. Never mind Zaitsev's wife conveniently showing up outside the bar with the homemade alcohol to inadvertedly sting Batou, oblivious to the fact that her husband has just been arrested a block over. Zaitsev inviting Batou to his house after a single spar (conveniently aligning with Batou's intentions to spy on him, but also striking me as strange: new guy shows up to Zaitsev's gym, Zaitsev is acting careful not to be caught leaking information, yet bro invites the new guy over for dinner??). And don't forget this goofy bold claim: "You'll never be able to beat me, no matter how many times you'll try!" I also laughed at all of this on rewatch.

Sorry for belabouring this, but I just want to make it clear that I also think episode 16 is flawed. However, I don't think it's ridiculous for Zaitsev to say this line. One benefit of on-the-nose writing is that shit makes transparent sense. I'll lay out my understanding of the conflict in this episode. The "blind spot" in Zaitsev's heart is in reference to the parts of his life that he neglected in pursuit of other shit, seemingly spurred on by his loss in a paralympic boxing match, earning him a silver medal. Batou wants his role model to be innocent. He doesn't want to have to arrest someone he's been a fan of for years. He doesn't want Zaitsev to neglect the life he's built for himself. So when confronts Zaitsev with his priorities, Zaitsev is pushed to say the line in a moment of realisation. It's presented frankly, yes, but it's still all there. The emotional conflict? Well, idk man, it's right there. In like 15 mins, we're given insight into someone who lost their way after defeat and threw away a perfectly good life. (It's only limited because we're not deeply privy to the forces drawing Zaitsev away). Let's also consider that Batou wants things to be one way, but reality has other ideas that aren't exactly fitting well for the Big Man. It's not exactly good news, especially after the Tachikomas have just been decommissioned!

Incidentally, you don't mention Tachikomas' character arc at all nor any of the other stand alone episodes. The closest thing I saw was this, where you seem to be aware of the SAC's multiple attempts to reach (?) the audience.

"in spite of all of its attempts to reach the audience, it doesn’t seem to succeed or even really try when it comes to connecting in ways that matter e.g. touching the hearts and minds of viewers."

Now, Batou is definitely upset about the Tachikomas. It's just not made obvious. He's coy with Togusa when poked, and is reserved in his anger at the Major's order.

"GitS may not have been quite so willing to shed a tsunami of tears or scream loudly with feelings, but it presents itself as a film with a palpable mood."

I said I wasn't gonna mention the Oshii film, and I'm not gonna go into it. But here--and please correct me if I'm wrong--you appear to suggest that unlike Oshii's film, Kamiyama's SAC is willing to scream loudly with feelings. Idk, I just find this bizarre considering that you're finding it difficult to find the drama, emotional conflict, heart, and soul of the series. Like, is it screaming feelings or not? Surely these attempts are just the show's heart? Or do you mean to simply say that these attempts didn't work for you because they weren't presented in a similar fashion to the Oshii film? In which case, fair enough.


Okay, this brings me to the big point, and why I find the review fascinating. This isn't exactly a criticism, but your review helped me crystalise my own opinion of SAC. Basically, you mention that some kind of "underlying emptiness" was put "there by design". I just want to take a shot at outlining the significance of that design.



I actually agree that there is something missing at SAC's heart, and I think it's to the series' benefit. While they exchange lines of banter, empathise with other peoples' hardships, lose their temper, it's far more difficult to parse Batou and Motoko's attempts at self-reflection. They cling onto the external world, seemingly in an attempt to prove that they uniquely (their principles, their quirks, what they uniquely bring to the table) exist.

Batou: "No matter how many prosthetic bodies you went through, this was the one thing that was always ticking away the same time as you, right? In this time that's far too fleeting, people entrust memories to external devices because they want to set down proof that can identify them as a unique individual. For you, isn't that watch the one external mnemonic device that can identify the person you've been up until now?"

Motoko: [...] "A watch and weight training, huh? We've both clung to useless scraps of memory, haven't we?"

The emotional distance is the point. Batou and Motoko are aware of the coldness and lament it. The souls/beating hearts of these characters are definitely there, they're just buried under the effects of cyberisation. They can no longer reliably use their very bodies to affirm their existence, because those bodies are not the original versions of themselves. Their ghost is an arbitrary addition. Personal identity has become vague, the central point of the entire franchise, and so these characters defer to external devices. This, to me, is incredibly powerful writing. Not just because of this process in and of itself. But because the process is an inseparable part of their duties as of Section 9 with Motoko being especially embracing of practical augmentation. A watch is barely anything. And weight training has physically/functionally meaningless effects on Batou's body.

Speaking personally, episode 25 added a whole layer to these two characters, inciting my rewatch. And it was after this that I found the review. I was left grateful for the personality that does poke through. It made every inflexion feel as if it were being pushed to the surface against some force that is slowly snuffing out the person that was once Batou, and the person that was once Motoko. I don't just outline this to glaze my fav anime...

"it strikes me as odd that a series held in such high esteem by so many would be one that engendered such minimal emotional attachment from the audience to its characters, at least in my experience."

...I also just hope to have given you some context as to why people become emotionally attached to SAC, and not just for the other parts that it nails. Granted though, I think I'm in the minority amongst SAC fans in my reading of Batou and Motoko.

u're right, monster is better on manga >>

Urobuchi fanboy

nice batman profile pic.

nice reviews

How come you are in this site for 5 years now and no one has commented on your profile yet? Putting that aside, I read some of your reviews and I really enjoyed them! Keep up the good work! By the way, superb taste